tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post1678137902283914438..comments2024-02-06T08:43:35.333+01:00Comments on Sea Legs Girl: Daring to discuss teratogens in the culture of blame and guiltsea legs girlhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14782712411873234071noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-61148833230461177572011-02-10T19:10:47.767+01:002011-02-10T19:10:47.767+01:00I just read the new nutritional guidelines the gov...I just read the new nutritional guidelines the government came up with here and searched to see what they had to say about weight gain in pregnancy. All it says is follow "Institute of Medicine and Nutritional Research Council's "Weight gain during pregnancy: re-examining the guidelines. Natl. Acad. Press, 2009." Well, that sure clears things up!SteveQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16943650844671498074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-64633773519434876492011-02-09T18:01:21.208+01:002011-02-09T18:01:21.208+01:00Have you heard "Go do" by Jonsi? It has ...Have you heard "Go do" by Jonsi? It has all that nauseating pop stuff you like to run to.SteveQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16943650844671498074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-36793566592382463832011-02-08T15:07:54.969+01:002011-02-08T15:07:54.969+01:00Hi, slg - I just wanted to stop by and thank you f...Hi, slg - I just wanted to stop by and thank you for your kind words during this latest family tragedy of mine. So ... hey, thanks! I am hoping to be able to get back to blogging and commenting as before soon enough. <br /><br />"As before" = "dickishly". But you knew that.<br /><br />Also, congratulations on being the Rosa Parks of teratogens discussion. It's about time teratogens had a seat at the front of the bus. They'll have you to thank for it.<br /><br />Oprah, on the other hand, would have bought them their own car. Just sayin'.Glaven Q. Heisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08223203230634447543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-16473590684944551232011-02-07T19:02:43.710+01:002011-02-07T19:02:43.710+01:00I won't pretend to have anything to say on the...I won't pretend to have anything to say on the matter - but I did finally get the ø in your name in my blogroll!SteveQhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16943650844671498074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-70063802641696752572011-02-06T22:07:15.653+01:002011-02-06T22:07:15.653+01:00I don’t know how fast the ramping speed of a fever...I don’t know how fast the ramping speed of a fever compares to the convection of heat from a hot bath. I would think that the hot tub was faster a fever has to build up using excess heat from our own metabolism. But I know too little about how the human body thermo-regulates. <br /><br />Concerning the studies on mental health and fever during pregnancy: <br />a) Correlations should always be interpreted with care. They do not prove a causal link. <br />b) Why do they think it is the heat (from the fever) and not the virus/bacteria causing the fever, or the immune response towards the pathogen, that causes the problem?pernillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11170769023412646243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-4364748542844866032011-02-06T20:55:14.186+01:002011-02-06T20:55:14.186+01:00Cool PPC! More discussion. I love it.
Are these ...Cool PPC! More discussion. I love it. <br /><br />Are these in vitro or in vivo studies? I'm just guessing in vitro, in which case they don't necessarily represent what happens in the human body. There is a reasonably wide range of temperature in which functions and reactions occur normally in the human body and I don't believe that exercise would under any sort of normal circumstances raise temperature to such an extent that it would significantly affect sperm transport. Showing that above a certain temperature sperm in a test tube move more slowly is not the same as a study showing that fertility is affected by the rise in body temperature caused by exercise. Hey - I'm not saying it's impossible, I just wouldn't believe it until I saw a more convincing study in women trying to conceive.<br /><br />FB - I have seen one study where there is an association between a heat source and neurtal tube defects and that's the one I presented here. But is it the heat or something else about hot tubs or the women who visit them?sea legs girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14782712411873234071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-4288803277457983012011-02-06T18:03:02.099+01:002011-02-06T18:03:02.099+01:00Come on SLG, you can't compare the rise in tem...Come on SLG, you can't compare the rise in temperature during intercourse to the rise in temperature during exercise. The other day I measured my temperature at 39.7 deg C after a mile repeat session! [Insert joke here about my athleticism in bed but.... it's hard to believe temperature would get that high during intercourse unless one was doing it in one of your beloved saunas!]. It was not in the Clapp book that I read about sperm motility and temperature, it was in a variety of different studies. Here is one example of such:<br /><br />"Sperm velocity increased steadily from zero to 50.4 nm/sec between freezing point and body temperature. Thereafter, their activity dropped dramatically and total immobilization occurred at 45°C."<br /><br />from http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2605.1981.tb00738.x/abstract<br /><br />also:<br /><br />"Semen specimens from fertile prevasectomy patients maintained at 4 degrees, 20 degrees, and 37 degrees C were evaluated at 3, 6, 12, and 18 hours after collection. Sperm viability, assessed by eosin-nigrosin stain, and motility decreased with time at 20 degrees and 37 degrees C, but at a significantly higher rate at 37 degrees C (where the motility was halved by 12 hours)."<br /><br />from:<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22463<br /><br />High temperatures makes sperm slow!PiccolaPineConehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09520539255908849462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-4778870194442542512011-02-06T10:13:34.933+01:002011-02-06T10:13:34.933+01:00As a guy who isn't as emotionally involved in ...As a guy who isn't as emotionally involved in this, I have to say a few things. <br /><br />The anonymous poster who talked about schizephrenia may have been joking but I don't think she was. Let's be clear that the reason pregnant women ar advised not to sit in hottubs has nothing to do with schizophrenia. Again, it sounds funny, but I don't think the poster was aiming for this. <br /><br />Women who are pregnant tend to be a little anemic. More importantly, they have fluid shifts, including swollen legs. Sitting in a hot tub, and to some degree in a sauna, causes dilation of the veins in the legs, worsening this fluid shift. Everyone can feel a little faint if he/she gets out of a tub too quickly, and this feeling, orthostasis, is more pronounced in pregnant women. <br /><br />I can think of many ways heat can harm the mother, but so far no one has linked to any study showing that heat can harm the fetus. Sea Legs, are there any, or are you picking out the negative studies only?Fast Bastard - World's Fastest Hematologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09439674206797439620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-25397551414131048812011-02-05T17:42:08.466+01:002011-02-05T17:42:08.466+01:00First- yeah, Stefanie - that is totally what I lov...First- yeah, Stefanie - that is totally what I love about blogging. Thanks to everyone for contributing to discussion.<br /><br />Now re hot tubs and social class. I need to be clear that I just think is liklier that women who go in hot tubs while pregnant are less educated, perhaps poorer - I mean there are signs everywhere. I'm not trying to be condescening, just thinking what I would have controlled for in this study. Got to wonder if these same women were likely to ignore other recommendations.<br /><br />Be Fit Mom<br /><br />Thanks for commenting. I did run across the studies about schizophrenia but found them very inconclusive and frustrating to read. It reminded me of the whole vaccination-autism connection. But do you know of a well-designed study which has shown a significant association?<br />Re neural tube devlopment, my impression from Embryology was that it occurs over weeks (wasn't it gesation weeks 3-8 approximatel?) and not just on one day.<br /><br />Grace - gotta admit my ignorance about electic blankets and electromagnetic fields. Sounds like there is yet another potential teratogen I could read about :). I find electic blankets dangerous just because of the fire hazard!sea legs girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14782712411873234071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-63584126197765786412011-02-04T20:29:42.641+01:002011-02-04T20:29:42.641+01:00It is my understanding that electric blankets are ...It is my understanding that electric blankets are not recommended during pregnancy due to the fact that they give off low level electromagnetic fields which may be harmful, not that the heat is harmful.Grace in TNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-39461753626861577782011-02-04T20:00:28.514+01:002011-02-04T20:00:28.514+01:00The neural tube forms at about 17 days gestation, ...The neural tube forms at about 17 days gestation, and therefore the problems associated with neural tube defects also occur very early in pregnancy, most often before a woman even realizes that she is pregnant.<br /><br />A correlation between high fever during pregnancy and mental health issues such as schizophrenia has been found in some health studies. That's why pregnant women are advised not to use saunas and hot tubs.<br /><br />Exercise does raise core temperature, but only slightly, and our bodies have several fetal protective adaptations, such as increased sweating and respiration and vasodilation which help prevent maternal overheating.<br /><br />In a sauna or hot tube, our abilities to dissipate excess heat is diminished. For this reason too, "hot yoga" or aerobic exercise in high temperatures and humidity are not recommended during pregnancy.<br />BeFit-MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-5786734100390165122011-02-04T19:54:37.169+01:002011-02-04T19:54:37.169+01:00My gut instinct is like Brianne's -- I just wo...My gut instinct is like Brianne's -- I just wouldn't think that hot tubs would be more frequently used by the lower socioeconomic classes. <br /><br />We are all guessing, but I wonder if there's any data on that. : ) <br /><br />I just think that the truly lower class are not making it to waterparks, cheap hotels, or anywhere else with a hot tub.Katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06582340182176367822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-77004304799284127732011-02-04T17:55:17.946+01:002011-02-04T17:55:17.946+01:00This post (and the comments) are exactly why I lov...This post (and the comments) are exactly why I love your blog. Love that you post scientific research and love the back/forth between all the readers.Stefanie Schockehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05047821932573274735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-57631522881110502602011-02-04T16:17:24.908+01:002011-02-04T16:17:24.908+01:00You're right about message boards: those place...You're right about message boards: those places are terrible breeding grounds for modern-day myths. I try to stay away from them, because they usually only ever irritate me.<br />Thanks for breaking down the study and discussing the effects or non-effects of a higher core temperature on a developing fetus. <br /> <br />I'd like to echo Brianne's comment about the use hot tubs. I'm not sure I would break up usage along socio-economic lines, although I suddenly feel the urge to see if there is a statistic on that.<br /><br />Do you find that, in general, American medical advice tends to take a more cautious approach when it comes to the activities pregnant women should be doing? Hot tubs and saunas are just part of a long list of "don'ts" pregnant women encounterDianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14137207492303218465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-91825413687880835162011-02-04T15:16:52.390+01:002011-02-04T15:16:52.390+01:00Good question Brianne. Simply because there are si...Good question Brianne. Simply because there are signs up everywhere around hot tubs not to go in them when pregnant and it tends to be young poor women who don't know they are pregnant right away. And it is only the first 8 weeks gestation that really matter.<br /><br />Hot tubs are not just for the upper class in the US - they are everywhere (waterparks, cheap hotes, etc.).sea legs girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14782712411873234071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-39961006428068070672011-02-04T15:02:36.107+01:002011-02-04T15:02:36.107+01:00How do you figure that it is mostly women with low...How do you figure that it is mostly women with lower socioeconomic status that frequent hot tubs?! I've never heard of there being hot tubs in trailer parks or the projects.....I only know of them at swimming pools and gyms - things not terribly frequented by the poor.Briannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06431194963154093500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-65519750209560616442011-02-04T12:01:53.677+01:002011-02-04T12:01:53.677+01:00noticed that the link won't paste in completel...noticed that the link won't paste in completely for some reason. The last of the link above should be /saunas.htmlStephhttp://www.kalahurkus.com/babynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-12337269031914077802011-02-04T11:59:55.228+01:002011-02-04T11:59:55.228+01:00Sea Legs Girl,
In response to your question, yes,...Sea Legs Girl,<br /><br />In response to your question, yes, physicians in the US do recommend against hot tubs and and saunas in the U.S. See link to U.S. Pregnancy Association recommendation below. I've also recently noticed postings near hot tubs and saunas at gyms warning against use by pregnant women. <br /><br />Do physicans in Finland really recommend sitting in saunas as a part of a healthy pregnancy? If so, then I would be interested in the reasons for the difference, but I don't think that they really do. These areas that I am talking about are not areas where there is a striking debate or division of opinion among the experts. The activites that I'm referring to are the ones in which a most, if not all, of the experts agree. In those cases, for reasons previously stated (i.e., resources, expertise and most importantly experience with actual pregnancies), I'm reluctant to second guess their advice based upon one or two studies that I'm able to dig up. My thinking is that they are in a much better position to see the entire "big picture." <br /><br />http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/saunas.htmlStephhttp://www.kalahurkus.com/babynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-3999282848962223312011-02-04T11:44:44.284+01:002011-02-04T11:44:44.284+01:00Sea Legs Girl,
Yes, physicians and those organiza...Sea Legs Girl,<br /><br />Yes, physicians and those organizations that I mentioned do recommend against saunas in the US (see below). Do physicians in Finland actually recommend sitting in saunas or hot tubs as part of a healthy pregnancy? If that is the case, then I would want to know why there is a difference of opinion. If they agree with the American physicians and pregnancy organizations, then I would not second guess their resources (for reasons already stated -- i.e., qualifications, expertise, and most importantly, experience with actual pregnancies). These activities that I'm referring to seem to be areas where most, if not all, of the experts agree. <br /><br />For your question on saunas, see e.g.,: http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/saunas.html. Also, I have very recently seen notices posted by hot tubs and saunas at gyms indicating they are not safe for pregnant women.Stephhttp://www.kalahurkus.com/babynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-49846994077781650982011-02-04T08:34:00.755+01:002011-02-04T08:34:00.755+01:00Pernille,
It is funny. I actually wrote that abou...Pernille,<br /><br />It is funny. I actually wrote that about the rapid rise in temperature from hot tubs maybe being the most dangerous. But then thought - doesn't out temperature also rise really quickly when we have a fever? It sure seems like it anyway. <br /><br />There is just something so cool in saying "from my experience with Drosophila". :).sea legs girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14782712411873234071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-78511227728341422972011-02-04T08:12:06.675+01:002011-02-04T08:12:06.675+01:00Yep, I’m a Dane.
Actually I’d expect (from experi...Yep, I’m a Dane. <br />Actually I’d expect (from experience with Drosophila ;-)) that the ramping speed might be as or more important than the final rise in temperature. A slow increase in temperature allows the organism to adjust, start an ample stress response, and suffer a higher temperature without permanent damage. We’re not really adapted to sudden submersion into hot water (which conveys heat to the body much more efficiently that air).<br /><br />And to supplement your example from Finland I never heard a word against hot tubs, exercise or saunas from anyone (neither from professionals or “ammestue” talk) during my two pregnancies. Actually warm baths was recommended to soothe labor pains, and it worked too! Mind you that was 12 and 14 years ago. Anyways, the neural tube defect manifests itself during the first weeks/months of pregnancy, you should be in the clear on that one :-).pernillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11170769023412646243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-27884101463817037962011-02-04T07:30:02.289+01:002011-02-04T07:30:02.289+01:00Kathleen
Totally agree :). My first pregnancy wee...Kathleen<br /><br />Totally agree :). My first pregnancy weeks with The Lorax were spent doing 2-3 hour runs without shade in the over 100 degree midsummer Oklahoma sun. The thought never once crossed my mind that it might be dangerous to the baby's development. Nor did SR get concerned. He was more concerned about the sketchy homeless men I ran by - for good reason!sea legs girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14782712411873234071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-37491808485571118862011-02-04T07:27:35.914+01:002011-02-04T07:27:35.914+01:00Pernille
I'm sitting here wondering what the ...Pernille<br /><br />I'm sitting here wondering what the chance is that you're not a Dane with that first name...<br /><br />Anyway, great point about the amout of heat exposure. The heat exposure is WAY more in a hot tub and they mentioned that in the study. Well, it's not way more than in a fever, but way more than a sauna or heating blanket. Not sure why I didn't mention it. Great point!sea legs girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14782712411873234071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-66628370000572782582011-02-04T07:25:23.212+01:002011-02-04T07:25:23.212+01:00Stephanie,
You bring up a question I have - do do...Stephanie,<br /><br />You bring up a question I have - do doctors recommend against sauna use in the US? One sees signs up all over around hot tubs (and I actually never knew why my last pregnancy) but I never actually heard a doctor or midwife recommend against them either.<br /><br />Then let me challenge your way of thinking. Let us say that you moved to Finland and there your doctor recommended sauna sitting as part of a healthy pregnancy. Would it suddenly be more right than it had been in the US? I am just saying that actually knowing the studies makes me feel safer than simply trusting the authorities.sea legs girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14782712411873234071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-834846832861622672.post-69545963319088992962011-02-04T00:46:30.475+01:002011-02-04T00:46:30.475+01:00Sea Legs Girl,
I love reading your analyses and re...Sea Legs Girl,<br />I love reading your analyses and research about different studies. I hear you on all of that. I guess I keep coming back to these questions that I have to ask myself as the person who is ultimately responsible for the safety of my baby until he is born. When 9 out of 10 OBGYNs (who have seen MANY pregnancies, miscarriages, and defects and stillbirths) and when organizations such as the Organization of Teratology Information Services or The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists advise strongly against an activity, why would I go against their advice? <br /><br />I guess it is not enough for me to second guess the source of their recommendation when much of their careers and (with respect to the above-named organizations) the whole purpose of their existence is dedicated to researching and making these types of recommendations. I suspect that their resources are VASTLY more extensive than mine. <br /><br />The answer for me, therefore, would be that I would need to be somehow convinced that whatever activity we are talking about (being it excessive exercise (NOT moderate exercise, which is actually recommended), sitting in hot tubs, saunas, or whatever) might have some benefit for the baby. If there is no evidence that it benefits the baby, and all of the above advise strongly against it, why would I still do it? If the answer is “because it makes me feel good, even though I could get by for nine months without it,” is that a responsible decision? <br /><br />Can’t seem to get past that.Stephhttp://www.kalahurkus.com/babynoreply@blogger.com